THE STATE AND A WOMEN

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The Centre for Gender Research of the European Humanities University (EHU) and the editorial board of the Belarus in the World journal organised a round-table discussion, which took place in the European Humanities University on 17 February 1999.

Below is the list of participants in the discussion of problems relating to the pursuit of policy of equal opportunities for men and women in different countries:

Ingrida Levrence - Charge d'Affaires of the Latvian Republic in Belarus;

Jessica Pearce - Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary Ambassador of the United Kingdom to Belarus;

Sule Soysal - Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary Ambassador of the Republic of Turkey to Belarus;

Alexander Yegorov - Editor of the Belarus in the World;

Anatoly Mikhailov - Rector of the EHU, Academician of the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus;

Vladimir Dunayev - Deputy Rector of the EHU;

Elena Gapova - Director of the Centre for Gender Research of the EHU;

Irina Dunayeva - Associate of the Centre for Gender Research of the EHU, researcher;

Snezhana Rogach - Associate of the Centre for Gender Research of the EHU, researcher;

Almira Usmanova - Associate of the Centre for Gender Research of the EHU, researcher;

Olga Shutova - Associate of the Centre for Gender Research of the EHU, researcher.

We would like to offer the readership's attention some parts of this meeting.

A. Mikhailov: Ladies and Gentlemen, on behalf of the EHU and Belarus in the World journal I am happy to welcome you at the University on the occasion of quite a unique event - a round-table discussion with the participation of women heading foreign diplomatic missions in Belarus. It happened so that there is a great number of women amongst heads of embassies in this country. It is not common - a position of an ambassador is traditionally viewed as "male". Unfortunately, Mrs. Madhu Bhaduri, Ambassador of India, and Mrs. Wu Xioqu, Ambassador of the People's Republic of China, were not able to join us. We are glad to have this meeting and hope that a free exchange of views will take place today.

E. Gapova: Today's discussion is initiated by the Centre for Gender Studies of EHU. The Centre started its activity a little over a year ago with the support from the John D. and Katherine K. MacArthur Foundation. Gender focus is a new and, certainly, westernized field. Gender studies first came to the former Soviet Union in the early 1990's and at that time were rejected by both academia and public figures. This is a new paradigm of knowledge and its development here, in a totally different political and cultural context, needs forming an intellectual environment ready to perceive such a paradigm. This is a complicated and challenging task. Therefore, the establishment of the Centre, i. e. institualization of this knowledge, is a certain landmark in the development of the social science in this country.

The subject of today's discussion is state and woman's career. In which way does the state determine the options that women have? If large-scale changes take place in a state, what is their impact on these options? Do new options arise and are there any losses?

The Ambassadors of three states are here with us today. Ms. Jessica Pearce represents Great Britain - a country with a century-long liberal democratic tradition. Ms. Sule Soysal is from Turkey, the country that has gone through the process of forming a nation state and its development into modernity. And this is already another tradition. Ms. Ingrida Levrence is from Latvia. Our part of the world is sometimes referred to as post-Soviet space. You and we have some common experience. Some of the post -1991 radical changes urged women to rethink new opportunities of individual choice that appeared for us when new elites came into existence.

So, what do you think - have there been any changes in the legislation or ideologies of your countries regarding the opportunities for women to choose a career?

I. Levrence: The Constitution, establishing equality between men and women, was adopted in independent Latvia in 1922. Various women's organisations were rather active in the 1920's. All of them partook in both parliamentary and municipal elections, only the latter, however, being successful. There were women deputies only in some cities. Regrettably, there were no female ministers before the War. Prior to this meeting I have briefly looked up some statistical and historical data. The first parliament we had, the so-called Constituent Assembly, was not elective. Its task was to develop and adopt a new Constitution. Among those who worked on it were some women deputies, though they were never re-elected into parliament. The above makes me thinking that whenever the state is suffering through hardships, the role of a woman gains significance. As soon as turmoil period comes to an end, such an "issue", so to say, disappears.

I. Levrence: As a matter of fact, there's academic evidence to that. In an emergency situation, work between genders is distributed differently.

I. Levrence: In the 1990's, the struggle for the re-establishment of independence repeats this situation again. I believe that in our state the hard times are still going on. In the newly elected Latvian parliament consisting of 100 people there are 18 female deputies.

E. Gapova: And this is without quotas? In the result of free independent elections - one fifth of the parliament are women?

I. Levrence: Indeed, we are not having now and have never had a quota system.

J. Pearce: As regards my country, the history of women being recognised by government is going from the period of suffragism to World War II. But it was really World War II that changed the attitude of society to women and actually proved that women can take a role and do other things than have children and cook. During the war lots of women worked at the factories, looked after the land, drove trucks and ambulances. After that it was recognized impossible to go back to the old state of things and have women solely at home not working. Still it was a long time before women started taking senior positions in government and business.

Margaret Thatcher was the only Prime Minister so far. We have never had female Minister of defence, female Minister of Foreign Affairs, female Minister of Treasury. If we look at the Foreign Office (Ministry of Foreign Affairs, it was only in 1973they changed rules that women didn't have to resign from the service when they got married.

O. Shutova: I am not saying that gender equality was fully implemented in the Soviet Union, but still it is hard to imagine that this was achieved only 25 years ago. Formally, we have had it since 1917. The whole generations grew up being aware that women enjoy the entire spectrum of rights.

J. Pearce: In 1995, the Foreign Office took, for the first time ever, the equal number of men and women. The year I was made Ambassador in 1996 the first year we had eight women ambassadors all at the same time. However, there have never been women ambassadors in Washington, Moscow, Bejing or any other major capitals of the world. So although the process is changing, it is still, I think, going to be another few decades before women will actually be accepted in senior positions. The current Labour government, as well as the Labour Party in general have always had a policy of encouraging more women to take more roles in the society. However, I think that the society still does not put as much trust in a woman as they do in a man in terms of running the country.

E. Gapova: But the state realises that approximately equal representation of sexes in various spheres is a matter of democracy and justice?

J. Pearce: I believe so. We are society that is increasingly concerned with fair representation of population. And that means for us not only gender but ethnic origin as well. At present we have many Indian, Pakistani, and African workers, all of those have to be represented. The increasing numbers of handicapped people need to be represented . There is a joke that the best way to get a job in the government is to be black, female, lesbian and handicapped. You have the principle, but you also have a caricature that goes with it.

E. Gapova: I recall that two years ago here there was a festival of women's films organised by "Tatyana" film production studio. There was an application from a producer, who wrote about herself that she was a woman, black, socialist, lesbian, and single mother. In other words, it was assumed that all this was to be taken account of in the course of selection, for she belonged to the discriminated groups by every parameter.

J. Pearce: In my opinion, it's women's attitude that needs to evolve as well.

Sule Soysal: Before Islam, the Turkish society was a matriarchal society. Islam bettered the status of women in Arabic countries initially. During the Ottoman Empire period Islamis law was applied to its muslim subjects. The implementation resulted indiscrimination against women. When World War I broke out, women assumed a significant role, started work in the production of military material, as well as in infrastructre works. In the 1920s a number of powerful women, leaders, and ideologists appeared. These women were very active: along with men they were moving across the country trying to mobilise the population; took part in the meetings and addressed them, which was new and untypical for the Turkish society. Many women also took part in the actual fighting. However, the main reforms and changes began to take place after the declaration of the Republic, the fundamental principle of which was secularism. The state and religion were separated. A new Civil Code, based on the Swiss Civil law, was adopted. In 1930 women were granted the right to vote in the local elections. Consequently, in 1934 they were granted the full vote. In 1935 there were first female deputies of the Parliament. Thus, women got access to the highest levels of power.

After that women began receiving education in all spheres. They were even becoming pilots and engineers. They were willing to prove that women can do the exact same things as men. Hence currently there are so many female judges, engineers, businessmen within the Turkish society. Many women serve in the military. Women work in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA). Their number, in fact, has considerably grown in the last few years (up to 20-25 %). Their appointment on the leading positions in the MFA is yet a long and slow process. Lately we have has only three female ambassadors. A year ago, when I became an ambassador, another two female ambassadors were also assigned. Currently the total number is six. Hitherto the share of women in the Parliament has been very insignificant.

There have been positive changes in the MFA of late that have made it somewhat easier for a woman to make a career in this field. Previously, women were not forced into taking early retirement after getting married, in practical terms, however, even if both spouses worked in the MFA, they were not regarded as a married couple. Most of the time they had to live apart from each other, for they were sent to different countries. Today another more pragmatic and flexible approach exists: they are to be assigned to the same embassy.

Mental changes do start taking place, although very slowly. An issue as to how women use their rights arises. The situation in the urban and rural areas varies: in the cities women use their rights more actively, whilst women in the countryside - not to the full extent. Regrettably, the number of women interested in politics is very limited.

J. Pearce: For a modern woman to succeed in career it is enough to be a professional in her area. Times have passed, when women had to be tough to protect their rights. A new generation of women - quiet and feminine - is emerging. The society is entering a stage with a new generation of women who made successful careers only because they are professionals.

E. Gapova: This is right. But what does it mean for women to become more competent in your area and what does it mean for men? What is the price they have to pay? Do they encounter the same obstacles on their way?

J. Pearce: This is conditioned by the differences that will always persist because of the differences in priorities and biology. From my own experience I can say that women often give up their goals not only because that they have no family, but also because while experiencing failures they are more likely to say: "This is not worth it". Men are, to a larger extent, driven by competitiveness and envy.

A. Yegorov: You mean they are more ambitious?

J. Pearce: Yes, to a degree.

E. Gapova: Last year we conducted an international student conference. Among other presentations from Russia, there was one focusing on social policies. The speaker emphasised that whenever a man is looking for a job, he is seeking a high salary, whilst a woman - a flexible working schedule. I am absolutely positive that this is not at all the biological consequence.

A. Yegorov: What is the men's perspective on the increasing role of women?

J. Pearce: This depends upon the style of women's behaviour. In case they are not aggressive and are just professional in what they are doing, the attitude of men is changing. However, there are areas where changes are very reluctant to take place. For instance the Royal Navy. We do have female navy officers, and they do not have an easy time of it on board. It will take a long while to accept this.

Sule Soysal: I think that in Turkey, while assigning to decision-making positions, preference is still given to men. This originated in the times when it was men only who held senior positions. In governmental area evolution is particularly burdensome. Women with "aggressive conduct" are not welcome there. In the past, women often used to give up their goals. At present, however, women are becoming increasingly ambitious, at least, this can be said about Turkey.

O. Shutova: Have there been any changes in women's concept of a successful female destiny? The formation of middle class and ideology of female predestination began in our country after 1991. There are even colleges and universities propagating this ideology.

I. Levrence: Our realities and starting-points are very similar. However, out society has been more apt to grasp at changes and new opportunities. Small and middle businesses have already become inconceivable without women. The general trends are not patriarchy-oriented: women are seeking both self-fulfilment and successful family life. In the Soviet Union women used to have the first child at the age of 20-22, whereas now in Latvia it is at the age of 30.

E. Gapova: As far as I know, there is no such body in this country that would work out policy in the area of equal opportunities in the sense it is discussed in the European Union (EU). It is traditionally perceived that we have resolved these problems and there is no need to think them over again. Are there any bodies in your countries dealing with the elaboration of equal opportunity policy with regard, for instance, to the fact that if there are only 2- 4 % of women in the Parliament, then it is not the consequence of women's reluctance to be involved in politics, but rather an outcome of a certain organisation of society?

Sule Soysal: There is a Directorate (equivalent of a Ministry) of Women's Affairs in our country. It is a state body dealing with the status and rights of women that comes up with or undertakes legislative measures. Thanks to it and to the NGO activity great changes in the legal sphere have occurred , which led to the adoption of a revised Civil Code. For example, in accordance with this Code, a woman can retain her maiden name after getting married. A woman willing to work does not have to ask her husband's permission for that any longer.

J. Pearce: In Great Britain there is an Equal Opportunity Commission and some lobbying groups that contribute to women's issues. There is also the initiative "Opportunity 2000" aimed at making employers provide women with more opportunities. A considerable part of changes to the legislation come from Europe and are established on the EU level. Women have sued a lot of employers lately. Such cases are put on trial in the Supreme Court of Great Britain, and in case the decision is not made - the case is brought to the European Court in Strasbourg. This is viewed, to a degree, as a European problem.

E. Gapova: The way I see it, it is a two-way process. On the one hand, it is initiated by the EU. On the other hand, civil society and women's organisations themselves articulate their interests.

I. Dunayeva: There are few women ambassadors world-wide and in this regard our guests' career is not just successful, but also unique. As a rule, diplomacy is a men's domain, and whenever we discuss women's successful career in traditionally male spheres, we anticipate overcoming difficulties of a special kind: prejudice of milieu, stagnancy of traditions and patriarchal stereotypes that are sometimes legitimised. Have you encountered difficulties like that in your life? To what degree are they connected with your choice of a diplomatic career? Also, do you believe that girls who are now willing to take up the same position, will run into the same difficulties as you had to face, or has the situation changed?

E. Gapova: I recollect entering the Institute of Foreign Languages, where along with the teachers' training department with girls prevailing, there was translators' department where men only were accepted. Graduates with major in Education later taught foreign languages in the country, whereas graduates with Translation major could get out of the iron curtain and went abroad. Everyone wanted to go abroad, but we were told that male interpreters would work both in Sahara and Lebanon, where no white women could make it. That was both sexism and racism at the same time. As far as I know, the situation is different now.

J. Pearce: In my case it was not so much difficult to make a career, as to get over the opinion of the peers that this is difficult. When I began taking exams to join the Foreign Office, everyone thought: "You are a woman, it will be difficult for you to make it." Besides, I am from Wales, and a minor ethnic tension only aggravates the problem, to a degree. Now that I can see these processes from the inside, it seems to me that there is yet a way making it possible to objectively evaluate the applicants, irrespective of their gender and to get over the existing anticipation of difficulties that women have in this work. In my career my own determination helped me. Lately we have launched a summer programme for schoolchildren to get an idea of the work of the Foreign Office. Groups of schoolchildren come to the Foreign Office, visit the departments, speak with employees, and sometimes even with the Minister. By so doing, boys ask what kind of people we meet, what political issues we run into, whether we have to work with the military, i. e. they pose professional questions, whilst girls wonder as to how difficult this work is, what will happen if they get married, etc. I think it is an issue of psychology and mythology that emerged about all this.

The beginning of my career was very boring. Interesting work started only in 1990 after my return to London. I explain it by the nature of my new position: after Saddam Hussein's attack on Kuwait sanctions against Iraq were imposed. So my task was connected with elaborating sanctions. The main thing in such work is surprise effect, although for some people it is very difficult to cope with it.

A. Usmanova: We have already mentioned the obstacles that hindered the possibilities for a diplomatic career of women in the USSR. Latvia is one of the republics of the former Soviet Union. Ms. Levrence, will you please tell us where you studied and how you managed to achieve such a status?

I. Levrence: When I finished school I wanted to study at the Moscow State Institute of Foreign Relations. It was very difficult to get there. Many bureaucratic procedures, references and certificates were required - from the Komsomol organisation, from the Communist Party, psychiatrist, etc. I managed to get hold of all of these and passed the examinations. However, the institute admission policy that discriminated against women, still did not allow me to join any department associated with foreign relations. Eventually, I graduated from the Roman department of the Moscow State University and was admitted to the post-graduate studies programme by correspondence. Living in Moscow, I was following the developments in Latvia and approximately in 1989 I realised that Latvia would gain independence. I was, however, mistaken in the time frame and did not anticipate such a prompt dissolution of the USSR. Consequently, I got a very good job in our representation in Moscow - the most important mission, probably, where we practised our diplomacy at that time. It was a hot job. Later, I worked in the ministry. Then, I was deputy head of mission and in 1997 I was offered to take a position of the head of the Latvian mission in Belarus.

Sule Soysal: I wanted to become either a doctor or an archaeologist and did not think of diplomacy. When I finished school, my friends joined the faculty of political sciences, which was prestigious. I entered the same place to keep company. Therefore, it looks like I chose my current occupation by chance. Upon my employment in the MFA, I got married. At first the then-minister, an educated and progressive man, did not welcome the idea of women's advancement to high-ranking positions. He has changed his position only recently. Upon appointment all husbands and wives worked in different places (three women worked in the MFA at that time). My first assignment was to Rotterdam and my husband's - to Vienna. All other women either retired or were on leave, whereas my husband and I received new assignments: I - to Damascus and he - to Oman. It became possible to meet more often, and I started thinking about children. Then, in Damascus, I gave birth to a son. I went back to Ankara, and later on we were lucky - both of us were assigned to Vienna. I was dealing with the international organisations there. I liked this work: it was possible to display initiative and I was familiar with the problem of narcotics. I gave birth to a daughter in Vienna. Then I was assigned to Bern, where I was deputy head of mission; I did his job while he was not there. This experience was very important. Some time later I was sent to Belarus as an ambassador.

I want to emphasise that it took me more time, compared to men, to pass this way. Having children and school- related problems are, first of all, woman's responsibility. In case of a chance of career advancement male colleagues accepted proposals, even if it was necessary to leave. I, however, often had to give up, for it meant a new school for children, new friends, and new teachers. I had to provide normal life for children. I assume, this is the main difference between men and women working in this area.

Additionally, despite the fact that women are considered to be good employees, preference is still given to men in promotion to higher posts. Now the situation is changing. Several women got high-ranking posts, however, not in the political division, but either in the cultural or the UN department. Discrimination is made manifest in the viability of opinion that women cannot deal with politics.

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